Housing Market “Stuck” Until 2026 as Insurance Prices Rise

Dave:

Economists are now saying that the housing market may be stuck all the way until 2026. So how does this impact real estate investors? Is it just prices that are stuck or are home sales going to be stuck? Should we all just sit around and wait two years and not do anything in the meantime?

What’s going on everyone? And welcome to On the Market. I’m your host, Dave Meyer. Today we have a headlined show for you. That means we have the whole crew, Kathy Henry, and it was supposed to be James, but he thinks he’s better than all of us and he decided not to show up today. So we’re going to be doing this one without him. And on today’s headline show, we have some good ones. So he’s really missing out. On today’s headlines, we’re going to be talking about why economists think the housing market is going to be stuck for several years and how that might impact all of us as investors. We’ll also talk about overlooked cold markets where you may be able to snag a deal due to less competition. Our third headline is about investor sentiment regarding insurance premiums, which are the worst, and if you should be concerned about them too. And lastly, we’ll talk about how the average renter may not actually be able to afford current market rents. So we got a great show, but before we get into our headline show, we have a personal headline for you. Well, and we have a personal group headline, which is that all of us get to go to BP Con this year, which is in Cancun, Mexico, and I’m very excited. Are you guys pumped?

Henry:

I’m so pumped. Oh,

Kathy:

I love the BP Con party. I mean event, it’s going to be amazing. Yes.

Dave:

Well, I do think that is sort of an important part of it. There are many real estate events out there, but I think the great thing about the BP Con event is that it has incredible speakers and incredible education, but it’s also just so much fun. Every single year they do more and more. Last year they rented out all of Universal Studios and we just got to ride roller rollercoasters with no lines for hours on end. This year it’s at an all inclusive resort in Cancun, and I am dreaming about what a herding I’m going to put on that taco buffet. It’s not going to, they will lose money off of me in this proposition. I am sure about that.

Kathy:

Well, your network is your net worth or your net worth is your network, however that saying goes and there’s no better way to network than sitting out by a pool or on the beach in Cancun, but it really is so important. I mean, most of my success is because of relationships I’ve created over the years. It’s so important, right, Henry?

Henry:

The relationships are the key. The money is made in the hallways and at the networking events, guys just being around like-minded investors who are doing things, everybody’s got a power that you don’t have. And so being able to be that close to everybody around you who has something that you need to help your business and it’s all right there in proximity, is always life-changing.

Dave:

Absolutely. And it’s going to be a lot of fun. All of us are speaking. James is speaking too. Kathy and I are actually speaking together. We’re going to be doing a presentation together, so that will be a lot of fun. But if you haven’t heard about BP Con in general, it’s a conference BiggerPockets throws every year for real estate investors to learn from the best in the industry. That’s just a humble shout out to us being the best in industry. But this year the conference is in Mexico at this very cool all-inclusive resort and we’d love to see you all there. So if you’re interested, make sure to visit biggerpockets.com/mexico and you can get all the details there. You’ll learn a lot and have a very good time With that, let’s get into our first headline today, which comes to us from CNN. The headline reads, the housing market is stuck until at least 2026 Bank of America warrants.

Key points here are that economists from Bank of America have stated the housing market won’t become unstuck until 2026, and that is basically projecting or predicting that this era of low home sales and somewhat stagnant prices may be with us for a while. And this is due to a combination of home prices that went up during the pandemic, of course inflation, high interest rates, all of that, but they still expect home prices will climb by 4.5 this year and then another 5% in 2025 before eventually dipping in 2026. Henry, what do you make of this? Do you feel like the housing market, let’s just start there. Do you feel like the housing market is stuck?

Henry:

Yes. Okay. Yes,

Dave:

Absolutely. In what way? How do you feel that

Henry:

It’s just all the economic factors that go into what would need to happen for the market to not feel unstuck? So if you think about it, yes, housing prices are continuing to go up. Interest rates I don’t think are going to come down anytime soon, and if they do, it won’t be by very much. And so I don’t know how much of an impact that’s going to have on the housing market. Affordability continues to be a problem, and all of this is wrapped in a pretty bow by supply and demand because there just isn’t enough supply to satisfy the demand out there in terms of homes. And so unless we see something change on the supply side, which could happen if somebody gets creative with creating affordable housing, then I think we’re going to continue down this path of prices will be where they are rising slowly and interest rates will be somewhere between seven and 9%, but it’s the new normal and I just don’t see a way anytime soon that makes a shift. And so we just try to make sure that we are underwriting deals given today’s environment and if we can make deals work now, if things get better, that’s great, and if things get worse, well we’re still buying at a discount and we can pivot. Are you

Kathy:

Feeling stuck, Kathy? Oh, this is a funny headline. So another way to look at this headline, because remember I’ve said before that if it bleeds, it leads if it, it’s always got to be a negative twist to things when it comes to headlines. But another way to write this would be that homeowners are in the best position they’ve ever been in. Historically, their debt to income has never been so good, meaning that they are locked into fixed low rates and yet they’ve seen wage growth generally over the past decade. So the headline in 2008 was, ah, homeowners are in the worst position they’ve ever been in. They can’t afford their mortgages because the mortgage payments are going up. We’re not there today. The positive angle to this is that people who do own their homes are in the healthiest position they’ve ever been in. Now, if you’re a vulture, if you’re a real estate investor looking for a good deal, this isn’t your time and listen, I am one.

So you have to dig a little harder to find an opportunity. So there’s a positive angle to this. What was interesting is that finally the headlines and the larger corporations are saying it in this article. B of A says it could be six to eight years before we see a change. So who this is not good for is the person who doesn’t own their home. But for homeowners today, they’re literally in the best position they’ve ever been in. Housing is more stable than it’s ever been because homeowners are in the strongest position they’ve ever been in. But people who are not homeowners are the ones who are challenged. And if we can focus on that, hopefully we can find solutions for renters and for people who would like to own a home, but it’s not going to change probably until interest rates go down. The fact of the matter is there’s no housing crash coming and instead prices and it’s finally admitted in the headlines, prices are probably going to continue to rise, and if people know the truth, then they can start to do something about it.

Henry:

I mean, over the past couple of years, everybody’s been talking about how unstable the housing market is, and this is a bit of stability and there’s always power in stability because it allows you to make decisions and seize opportunities because you have the time and because of the predictability, you have some sense of what’s actually going to happen. There’s opportunities in every market and even when the market was at a place where people could buy and get really cheap interest rates, there were still people on the sidelines saying, well, this isn’t a great time to buy. So I don’t know that even if the housing market gets unstuck, that that changes things for a lot of people. I just want to be able to leverage the fact that there is a little bit of stability right now. And so that means I know what to go and look for and I know how to monetize it and I know how to protect myself.

Dave:

I am going to disagree with you a little bit, Kathy, and with this headline, I don’t think housing prices are going to go up 4% and then 5%. I think that is too aggressive of a forecast. Personally, I think prices are going to be a little bit closer to flat over the last next couple of years because what they’re talking about is that yes, I agree that home sales volume is going to stay relatively low, but what we’re seeing is that inventory is starting to go up, not that much, but it is starting to go up a little bit, and that is likely to decrease the pace of growth. I’m not saying that means it’s going to go negative, but I wouldn’t be surprised if we saw home prices a year from now up maybe 1% year over year or 2% year over year, which is more in line with normal growth rates.

Usually it’s like two to 3%. I just don’t think we’re going to see this outsized growth rate, which in recent years, four and a half percent, 5% doesn’t sound outsized, but that is higher than the historical average. And so I actually think we’re going to come back closer to a healthy housing market and that would mean more normal appreciation levels. The thing I do want to call out here though is that this is going to be rough for service providers. I think we’ve seen that the slowdown in home sales has just hurt the industry, and it’s not just home buyers, but loan officers, real estate agents, appraisers. And unfortunately if this is correct, it means it’s going to be another tough year or two because in Covid we saw 6 million home sales per year. Now they’re forecasting 4 million next year that’s a 50% reduction in transaction and transactions, how these people make money. And so I do think this is going to be a tough time for the whole real estate industry in general and the broader economy, if you look at GDP housing makes up about 16% of GDP. And so if we’re forecasting a big decline that is going to drag on the economy in general. So just a couple other data points to throw in there.

Kathy:

And Dave, I have to debate with you since we’re going to be doing a session together at beeping,

Dave:

Let’s do it.

Kathy:

I just want to say that our whole economy is based on the velocity of money. Things need to move, things need to sell. That’s how taxes are collected. If you have a stuck market, you’re right, there’s not going to be as many jobs as many people making money, but that’s exactly what the Fed has been trying to do for the past few years is slow down that velocity of money and they’re getting there. So the next steps are going to be for them to speed it up a little bit. It’s most likely that this year they’re going to cut rates in the next year even more, which speeds up the velocity of money. And I think there will be more sales, there’ll be more activity, which then creates more, again, more tax income and so forth. So that will be my debate is that we are now at the precipice of the beginning of stimulus, at least that’s what I think.

Henry:

So it sounds like to me that Dave is saying housing prices are going to go up slowly and then maybe trail off in 2026 and Kathy’s saying no, it’s going to go up. So Kathy says buy and Dave says, no, wait,

Dave:

No, I’m not saying wait, I’m buying right now. I don’t think it’s bad to buy in a flat market at all. I think it’s going to slow down sooner and then accelerate because I do agree that rates will probably come down, but I don’t think it’s going to be that much. And I think what a lot of people in real estate are overestimating is that the reason there’s no supply is because rates are high. And where we’re saying, oh, rates are going to go down, so demand’s going to come back, but you also have to assume that supply is going to come back too because if rates cause demand to drop and supply to drop, and you sort of have to assume the inverse is true. And so when rates go down, supply is going to come back a bit and demand’s going to come back. We don’t know exactly in proportions, but thinking just people are going to buy and inventory is going to say the same. I don’t think that’s what will happen. But we’ll see. Kathy and I are going to box, live on stage, live

Kathy:

On stage. The problem is you’re almost always right, so this is bad for me.

Dave:

Definitely not almost always, right?

Henry:

But also if you are boxing, my money’s on Kathy. Yeah,

Dave:

I also would put my money on Kathy, please don’t make me do that. Alright, so we just got through our first headline, but we do have three more right after this quick break.

Welcome back to the show. Let’s move to our next headline. Okay, let’s move on to our second headline, which is want to snag a real estate deal, these 20 cold markets, maybe a buyer’s best Shot at a Bargain. This comes from realtor.com. Basically what they’re saying is that there are certain markets, a lot of them are in Texas and Florida or Louisiana where houses are sitting longer and there’s just less transaction volume. And we are actually seeing days on market really starting to tick up in some of these markets. And so the question to you then, and we’ll start with you Kathy, is are these good opportunities, even though they’re slower, some of them are actually even seeing housing prices decreased modest like 1% maybe year over year, but would you be hesitant to invest in one of these markets or do you see it as an opportunity?

Kathy:

No, I’d be absolutely hesitant. One thing I do not do is invest in flood zones and a lot of these markets are really affected by hurricanes and flooding and the insurance costs have gone up 20%. So that’s just not a risk I’m willing to take. There’s enough good places to invest where I don’t have to have that stress every day. I invest all the time in Florida. That is one of my hot markets and Texas, but we stay away from those flood zones. We invest in a little bit more inland in Florida. I just interviewed a climate expert from CoreLogic and he agreed with me. He’s like, yeah, central Florida is really, it’s not an issue even for a hundred years on the a hundred year map, but today we know for sure that there’s certain areas in the Gulf that just are getting hit and hit and hit and you’re not even if you buy the property at a low cost, are you going to be able to insure it and for how much? So that’s my concern. Now, I wouldn’t buy in those areas no matter how cheap.

Dave:

Lemme just read you a couple of the places on this list here. We have Lake Charles, Louisiana, Huma, whoa, this is going to test my pronunciation. Helma Thibo, Louisiana. Never heard of that. Panama City, Florida, Punta Goda, Naples, Cape Coral, Miami. Then in Texas we have Macallan Brownsville, and then a couple places in the Sunbelt like Las Cruces, New Mexico, Phoenix, Arizona and so on. So yeah, I think a lot of those places in Louisiana, Texas, Florida definitely in flood zones. Henry, just sort of in a philosophical level, do you think there’s something wrong with buying in a colder market?

Henry:

No, I mean there’s two lenses to look at this through. So you can look at it from the investor standpoint, which is I’m an investor, should I go look to snag up a property in one of these cold markets? I guess that depends. You’re going to have to do your research. I mean we’re going to talk about this a little bit later, but insurance costs are going through the roof and so you want to make sure that you’re underwriting that deal correctly and you’re not just considering getting a deal, but what are all the ancillary costs that are going to be a part of that deal? But there are probably some cities here that have decent appreciation, that have longer days on market where you can go and make offers with some contingencies that are going to be in your benefit. Now the catch is this only works if you’re going to hold it for a while because you’re not going to be able to buy something, even if you are getting some contingencies and then turn around and sell it in a year and make money, this is probably going to have to be a play where you’re going to sit on it for a little bit.

Now, from a homeowner’s perspective, people live in these places. So if you live in one of these cities, yeah, I think there is opportunity for you to get yourself into a property where you get some contingencies. Affordability is a problem, and so if you’re in one of these blue dot cities on this map that we’re looking at, well then you can make offers that maybe allow you to cover some of your closing costs and get yourself some of the price reduction so you’re not bringing as much of a down payment. And so that way it makes owning a home actually more affordable for you. So I think there is opportunity there.

Kathy:

Yeah, there’s one city that I was really surprised isn’t on there, and it’s Austin. I

Dave:

Think Austin has bottomed out a little bit. It’s still down. If you look from peak pandemic levels, it’s still down. I think the most of any major metro New Orleans has been hit pretty hard too. But yeah, I think this is just year over year data, so just in the last one year. But I do think that that sort of Austin is a perfect example of what I was just about to say, which is that there’s this sort of interesting dynamic where a lot of the markets that have corrected the most since the pandemic are some of the markets with the best long-term fundamentals. Austin’s just this enormous economic growth, enormous population growth. They just went crazy for a little while. And so at a certain point you have to think that a correction in those market is a good sign because there’s probably a good chance that it’s going to go back up. It’s not like a dying city, Austin is anything but a dying city. So it’s like you have to figure out if you can time the market, which is super hard, but if you can find a good deal in a market like Austin, you got to feel pretty good about it. If you’re buying five, 10, 15% off peak, I mean, I would be interested in something like that.

Kathy:

Yeah, I think Austin’s probably a great opportunity. McAllen on this list surprised me a little bit and I’d like to dig deeper into that or if any of our listeners know what’s going on in McAllen, that whole area is growing so quickly, maybe prices got too high or I don’t know what’s going on there. I don’t know why it was on the list.

Dave:

Yeah, I don’t know. Texas has just been in the last couple of months seen a lot of declines often because they just grew too fast. And I do think it’s important to caveat by saying that if you look at a lot of these markets, even with the declines, they’re probably still some of the markets that have grown the fastest since 2019, for example. So it’s like maybe they got a little overheated, but in the grand scheme of things have been outperforming a lot of the rest of the country. So just keep that in mind. Alright, let’s move on to headline number three. As Henry alluded to the headline reads, the home insurance shock hitting the housing market has landlords concern too. This comes from Fast Company and from a survey conducted by Lance Lambert at Resi Club, if you recognize that name. Lance has been a frequent guest on this show.

He talks a lot about real estate data, but his company, resi Club did a survey and showed that the average US home insurance premium rate rose 11.3% in 2023, which was double the increase of 2022. So that’s a lot. I mean in any other year, 11.3% would be insane. I’m sure people in Florida are like, I wish my premium only went up 11.3% because we’ve seen in that market some of them are going up 50% a year, some of them are doubling. And the interesting part of this story here is that Resi Club conducted a survey, and not surprisingly, I guess 37% of investors are very concerned on a national basis about the rate of increasing insurance while 43 are somewhat concerned. So basically 80% of landlords are worried that this is going to impact their business in a significant way. So Henry, first of all, how has this impacted your business so far?

Henry:

So from an insurance perspective, we actually are conducting an audit right now of what we’re paying on our monthly premiums and actively shopping them around to see where we can save money. As we sat down and looked at our total company budget, our largest spend outside of our staff is on insurance costs. And so obviously those are things that you can do something about if you can shop that around. So this, and in all honesty, this is the first time in the seven years I’ve been investing that we’ve actually done that. And so that tells you that the premiums and the prices have gone up. It’s also changing how we’re underwriting the deals. We’re having to underwrite them based on higher costs, and that means I now have to buy a property cheaper to offset those costs. So it’s definitely impacting our business so much so that we are taking a holistic look at our entire portfolio.

Dave:

You miss the good old days where insurance was kind of just like a check the box thing. It was like whatever. Yeah, 1800 bucks, cool, whatever.

Kathy:

It was kind of always the same. You could just plan for it and proforma for it. You guys know I syndicated a development in Utah and Park City and I was talking to some of the homeowners just last week and one guy said he couldn’t get insurance and this is in Utah where it’s not typically a place with storms. Not that bad.

Dave:

Yeah.

Kathy:

And so I was like, what did your insurance agent say? And they said, well, it’s California and Florida’s fault, probably also the Gulf that insurance costs have gone up so much just to cover all the losses from the fires and the flooding. But the good news is, and again this is anecdotal, this is from these conversations, but also from conversations I’ve had with a bunch of insurance companies is that they do see it potentially changing soon, maybe a year or so that there’s going to be either a government mandate or something because there’s just too many homeowners. What are we going to do? You can’t just not have insurance. So it did sound like the consensus from the people I spoke with anecdotal. Again, I don’t have evidence of this from anybody in a boardroom, but that it will get better, but right now we’re kind of in the thick of it. So I’m holding onto that hope.

Dave:

I hope you’re right. This is obviously unsustainable, 11% returns. I mean for me with underwriting depending on the property, but I used to just assume that things like insurance would go up at roughly at the pace of inflation. It’s like two or 3% a year, but now I’m going to at least for the next year or two think it’s going to go up 20%. I hope I’m wrong, but I’m going to just budget for that because recent evidence suggests it might.

Henry:

And again, this is one of the things that I think that new homeowners, so not investors need to think about. You need to understand what insurance is doing year over year because I have heard so many stories of first time home buyers buying properties and then their mortgages going up so much between insurance and taxes that they are finding themselves in a situation where they need to sell their homes because they can’t afford the payments anymore. We

Dave:

Had a guest on maybe two months ago who was talking about this and he said that in certain states, I think in Louisiana specifically, that for a certain amount of home buyers, taxes and insurance were now as much as principal and interest on their mortgage. It’s a second mortgage. It’s insane. That is crazy. And no one budgets for that. And we talk all the time on the show about the benefits of buying real estate, being that when you lock in that debt, you’re assuming principal and interest are the big parts that you want to lock in. And maybe for the first time, at least in my 14 year career, but maybe for one of the first times ever, we’re starting to see the fact that insurance and taxes are variable really starting to impact obviously investors, but probably even more so homeowners.

Henry:

Absolutely.

Dave:

We’ve hit our first three headlines, but we do have one more super important discussion for you. Can your tenants still afford rent? We’ll hit this when we return. Well,

We back to on the market. Let’s jump back in. All right, let’s move on to our last and final headline, which comes from Redfin and Reed’s. Renters must earn $66,120 to afford the typical US apartment. The problem is that the typical renter makes $11,000 less than that in a year. So you can probably figure this out, but basically the average US household that has renters in it earns an estimated $54,712 per year, which is 17% lower than what the average person needs to get the median price apartment in the US right now. The good news is that rent growth is slowing down in a lot of places, actually turned negative in a couple of cities and wage growth is outpacing this metric. So that should make things affordable in the long run, but that can take a little bit of time. So I’m wondering, Kathy, are you concerned this could lead to further rent declines if it’s just not affordable? This

Kathy:

Is a huge issue guys, and this is something of course we talk about all the time on the market. I think it was realtor.com came out with a report saying there’s seven to 8 million affordable homes needed. So you often hear there’s like three to 4 million homes needed, but affordable. Affordable is the issue, and it’s tragic when I talk to people or when I’m out and about and listen to people at the airport or whatever, they’re struggling because most of their money is going towards rent. Now, coming back to me personally as an investor, I like to invest in areas where the average person in the area can afford. When I’m offering, that’s my metric, I want to know what’s the average income in the area and what’s 30% of that and make sure that I’m providing that. Then I know at least there’s, when you take the average, that means that more people can afford what I’m offering, but that does not mean I’m solving the problem for people who don’t make the average income. And that isn’t necessarily something that can fall on real estate investors because we’ll lose money doing that. We’re not in it for charity and you can’t probably provide housing that’s cheap enough for people to be able to handle. So it’s a huge problem. Nobody knows how to solve it. It’s not changing what I’m doing. I still feel like I’m really providing an important service, which is affordable housing for the average renter.

Henry:

Henry, what are your thoughts on this? Rent has stayed pretty flat here over the past year or so. We’re doing incremental increases where it makes sense, but I think what we’re seeing though is we have so many people that need to rent that it is making the market somewhat competitive. And so the challenge for investors is we need to go out and buy, but then we’re faced with the high interest rates and the higher cost of real estate, which means now we have to rent that at a price point where it makes sense. And I think what’s causing a lot of the issue is either inexperienced investors who are buying things at too high of a price point are trying to get either too much rent or forcing rents up in certain areas, or you’ve got money coming in. So we’re in the middle of the country.

And so you’ve got people in some of the higher dollar areas selling properties and then putting that money to work here, and they’re buying properties and paying more because they can, they got California money and they’re buying Arkansas properties and then now they’re trying to get those higher rents and it makes affordability a problem. And so we’re starting to see a shift where a class properties become B class properties and B class properties become C class properties. And so people who would want to find themselves in a class and are renting a B or a C class. And so I think it’s just like this trickle down effect from the housing market. I don’t know how we fix it unless we all come together, meaning builders, investors and city and local governments to provide some sort of relief or affordable housing. There are some things that investors are looking at doing rent by the room to provide some of that affordable housing that gets them to get a total increased rent, but your rent by the room, it then becomes affordable for that one person who’s renting that room. But it would need a whole lot of that to make a big impact.

Dave:

I mean, unfortunately, the only real long-term solution to something like this is more supply demand’s not going anywhere. We’re going to need housing for people, and that takes a long time. And with interest rates the way they are and the other things we’ve talked about, which is insurance rates and taxes being as high as they are, the climate for building more rental units is not great. Right now we’re actually seeing a huge drop off in multifamily construction. So I don’t really know how this plays out. There’s no easy solution here, but I guess it’s a similar forecast to what many people think will happen in the housing market that perhaps what happens is rent stays relatively flat for a little bit, at least relative to inflation, and that real wages go up and so things do get affordable for people. It’s kind of this idea where one thing stays steady while the other one steadily climbs. That could be another way, but in the long run, that would still be short term until there’s enough supply to meet demand. That’s just how a market works. So hopefully developers, governments, businesses can figure out a way to do this because obviously this is not good for those individual renters or really for the economy in general.

Henry:

There’s one thing that Kathy said that I absolutely want to reiterate. She is not buying properties banking on the highest possible rent that she can get. She is protecting herself by buying properties and underwriting them under the market rent. What that does is it protects your investment and it provides more affordable housing for people. So it’s a win-win in that situation. And I don’t think a lot of investors are underwriting their deals like that. Everybody wants to know what’s that max rent that I can get? And they’re going to making their offers based on that. But we are, you are probably not going to get that max rent, especially when you’re in areas like where we are, where they’re building a class. Apartments everywhere right now.

Kathy:

Yeah. I was just grossing out over the past few years when I would get ppms across my desk saying, Hey, we bought this apartment, we’re going to jack up rents and that’s going to increase the value and then we’re going to flip it. And it’s just like, ah, yeah, but what about society? There’s a maximum that people can afford. Now, a lot of those people are suffering. A lot of those apartment owners are kind of getting paid back, I guess you could say today, because they’re not getting the numbers they thought they would get. But we’ve got to be obviously conscientious as landlords, but we also can’t be in the negative, right? And when we’re seeing property taxes go up and we are seeing insurance rates go up and the cost of repairs to go up and all of those things, well that translates into rent. This is the problem. There’s more people who need a place to live than there is places to live. So that has to be solved. And it’s not easy when the cost to build is so expensive.

Dave:

All right. Well, thank you both so much for your feedback, insights, opinions, all of it about these four headlines. I hope you all learned something about what’s going on in the economy and agreed with me over Kathy in our debate. But we’ll just see what happens there. And if you want to see Kathy and I in a more amicable setting where we are going to be working together to talk about something, make sure to check out biggerpockets.com/mexico to learn more about BP Con and all the fun and networking we’re going to be doing there. Thanks so much for listening. We’ll see you soon for another episode of On the Market. I’m Dave Meyer. He’s Henry Washington. She’s Kathy Feki. See you soon.

On The Market was created by me, Dave Meyer and Kaylin Bennett. The show is produced by Kaylin Bennett, with editing by Exodus Media. Copywriting is by Calico content, and we want to extend a big thank you to everyone at BiggerPockets for making this show possible.